Someone said this today in another tribe in a post about James Brown's death:
"When you look at popular music today, you can trace it's origins to 4 pioneering artists:
Kraftwerk, The Beatles (post "Revolver"), Chuck Barry, and James Brown. Everyone else just imitated. These guys INVENTED entire genres."
Do you agree or disagree with this? Kraftwerk was certainly experimental. Did they have an influence on prog rock? According to Wiki ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk ): "The sound was revolutionary for its time, and has had a lasting impact across nearly all genres of modern popular music." For what do we have to thank Kraftwerk?
"When you look at popular music today, you can trace it's origins to 4 pioneering artists:
Kraftwerk, The Beatles (post "Revolver"), Chuck Barry, and James Brown. Everyone else just imitated. These guys INVENTED entire genres."
Do you agree or disagree with this? Kraftwerk was certainly experimental. Did they have an influence on prog rock? According to Wiki ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk ): "The sound was revolutionary for its time, and has had a lasting impact across nearly all genres of modern popular music." For what do we have to thank Kraftwerk?
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Re: Kraftwerk
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 12:14 AMpardon my flame...
why would this person claim kraftwerk, in particular, as a unique influence and disregard all of jazz, tinpan alley, folk, broadway show tunes, 60's psychedelia/garage punk, funk, punk rock, disco, heavy metal, punk funk, post-punk, post-rock, math rock, hardcore, post-hardcore, new wave, no wave, indy rock, college rock, etc.? because they're f?!king ignorant, that's why.
you could just as well say that james brown was stealing from little richard, or that chuck berry [make blanket pronouncements about music when you can spell the artists' names correctly, perfesser] was stealing from lightnin' hopkins. maybe all american music comes directly from scott joplin, or steven foster. or out of my fat white ass.
people who make pronouncements like this really know very little about musicology and music history. and that's fine, it's not a requirement to know or care about these things in order to enjoy music - just prepare yourself for some well-deserved scorn, motherf?!ker.
you can trace kraftwerk, for example, back to the electronic/experimental musicians of the 1950's like john cage or karlheinz stockhausen. or you can trace them to ronald f?!king mcdonald if you want to. music is organic, not linear - like history, it is a complex chaotic system of intertwining connections and entangling alliances. all you have to do is actually spend some time studying it to know this - not watch a few episodes of VH1 Classics and suddenly think you're an expert.
whew! guess i need to adjust my dosage... -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 12:39 PMDamn, that made me grin from ear to ear.
It was in the Politics tribe, if you really want to give him a piece of your mind. :)
And, yes, I suggest meditation. ;) -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 1:55 PMWikipedia, as cool as it is, often contributes to the notion of disinformation as just as much as the Bush Administration or others before them. There really doesn't need to be any fact checking prior to posting. I wouldn't knock Kraftwork as their influence is definitely profound but I have to agree that the Wikipedia post probably puts all of the above on a bit higher of a pedestal than necessary.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Wed, December 27, 2006 - 2:38 AMi probably need to spend a few more million lifetimes as an earthworm... -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Wed, December 27, 2006 - 6:26 AMI'd say Kraftwerk had a lot more influence on punk and new wave than they did prog. Hell, they were probably a reaction against prog. And you're right....they certainly didn't arise in a vacuum. They owe quite a bit to those early pioneers you mention, as well as to early electronic artists like Tangerine Dream. And where would they be if Moog hadn't been on the side of the stage with Emerson and Wakeman, doing R&D for synthesizers as the music was being recorded and performed :-) -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Thu, December 28, 2006 - 7:11 PMKraftwerk's cool...just a guess (even though it's true that wikipedia can be SPOTTY on its facts), but I'm guessing the article meant
that it was a MODERN influnce....post-"Gen-X" audiences are kind of programmed to ingnore rock history....so they're more likely to know about KRAFTWERK than they are all the material and creators that led to them...in THAT sense, their influence is strong...They WERE innovative, I won't dispute that. And they were DEFINITELY on their own trip...But modern media seems to be breeding future generations with an eye on flushing HISTORICAL IMPACT down the drain.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Thu, December 28, 2006 - 8:13 PMI think Kraftwerk did have great influence, primarily on electronica, yet even greater influences were Silver Apples, arguably the very first electronic music. Later Tangerine Dream. Neither of them had near the commercial success of Kraftwerk so they don't get credit for creating the genre. Kraftwerk gets credit for creating a genre only because more people remember them. Sad. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 1:23 AMListen to the very first kraftwerk album from 1971.
Sounds pretty prog to me.
Also listen to a kraftwerk bootleg called "K4: Bremen Radio 1971" if you can find it.
You won't even believe it's kraftwerk.
The very first electronic music was Pierre Schafer.
It's nice that Silver Apples two albums from the 60's are getting so much recognition in the last ten years.
They were largely ignored until stereolab cited them as an influence.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 10:26 AMDoes Schafer pre-date Theramin?
Is the urban folklore true that "Good Vibrations" was the first "pop" song with a synthesizer riff?
Is there an end to this lint in my navel?
Damn you people. Now I'm going to be scouring the libraries for Schafer and Silver Apples recordings...as if I'm not already obsessive-compulsive with my interminable mix CD's.............. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 10:31 AM...and by the wondrous Wikipedia I get from Theramin to Henry Cowell...ah, the internet...................
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 1:40 PMI remember a rumor back in the 70s that the "clicking" sound (or was it the bird sounds....?) in the Beatles "Blackbird" was the first true synth sound on a commercial album. I have no idea if this is true or not.....
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 1:49 PMI understand that "Good Vibrations" was actually done with a theremin but there was a "strip" like interface that was used with it to keep it in tune that was designed by Bob Moog. I am doing this by memory from an interview with Walter Sear in a back issue of Tape-op magazine.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, February 3, 2007 - 11:44 AMDel Shannon's 'My Little Runaway' was the first pop record to feature the theramin, however Edgard Varese used them in performances that may well have been recorded prior to this.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:09 PMOK, in fairness I didn't know Kraftwerk prior to Autobahn. On the other hand I was one of the handful of people who actually bought the first Silver Apples album in the 60's. Pierre Schafer and Theremin pioneered "electronic" music, but not the "electronica" genre in the meaning of the current house techno rave music. If you listen to Silver Apples it could easily be mixed into any techno DJs mix and nobody would realize that the music is from 40 years ago. It is almost scary how much they sound like techno, and they assembled the primitive instruments themselves. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:19 PMand yeah, I misspoke when I said Silver Apples was arguably the first electronic music, I meant they were possibly the first electronica-techno genre music. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:25 PMif you were buying albums in the 60's, you're even more old and crotchety than i, and that's saying something.
i think the first record i ever owned was isao tomita's synthesized version of holst's "the planets". -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:28 PM"i think the first record i ever owned was isao tomita's synthesized version of holst's "the planets"."
That's my absolute FAVORITE Tomita, hands down. I still listen to it every so often. There are probably people who would lynch me for saying this, but I've seriously considered that if this technology had been around when Holst was composing "The Planets," he might have done it this way instead. I've always found Tomita's version more moving than played by a symphony.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:23 PMI've never heard of Silver Apples before. I *love* early electronic music. (Anyone here know of Synergy; i.e., Larry Fast? Or Tomita? Wonderful.) I think I'll have to check them out. Thanks. :) -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:24 PMCan anyone recommend a particular Silver Apples album? -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 1:50 PM
I'd say get the first one, self titled I think. It had two apples printed in silver (reflective aluminum) on the cover.
They're still at it. Check out the 30 second sample from their fist 1968 album.
www.silverapples.com/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silv...28album%29 -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 6:18 PMThat's so awesome that you actually were down with the Apples back in the day. (This is where I bow and go "I'm not worthy!!!")
There's a CD reissue of the original first two silver apples albums available.
Very Highly recommended.
there's also a CD called "The Garden" that has some unreleased early tracks.
Here's a blurb about them from:
www.myspace.com/sapples
Decades after their brief yet influential career first ground to a sudden and mysterious halt, the Silver Apples remain one of pop music's true enigmas: a surreal, almost unprecedented duo, their music explored interstellar drones and hums, pulsing rhythms and electronically-generated melodies years before similar ideas were adopted in the work of acolytes ranging from Suicide to Spacemen 3 to Laika. The Silver Apples formed in New York in 1967 and comprised percussionist Danny Taylor and lead vocalist Simeon, a bizarre figure who played an instrument also dubbed the Simeon, which (according to notes on the duo's self-titled 1968 debut LP) consisted of "nine audio oscillators and eighty-six manual manual controls...The lead and rhythm oscillators are played with the hands, elbows and knees and the bass oscillators are played with the feet." Although the utterly uncommercial record ¡½ an ingenious cacophony of beeps, buzzes and beats ¡½ sold poorly, the Silver Apples resurfaced a year later with their sophomore effort, Contact, another far-flung outing which fared no better than its predecessor. After the record's release, the duo seemingly vanished into thin air, perhaps returning to the alien world from whence they purportedly came; however, in 1996 the Silver Apples mysteriously resurfaced, as Simeon and new partner Xian Hawkins released the single "Fractal Flow." American and European tours followed, and a year later a new LP, Beacon, was released to wide acclaim. The follow-up Decatur appeared in 1998, and was soon joined by A Lake of Teardrops (a collaboration with avowed fans Spectrum) as well as The Garden, the long-unreleased third and final effort from the original Simeon/Taylor partnership. However, on November 1, 1998, the Silver Apples' van crashed while returning from a New York gig; the accident left Simeon with a broken neck and spinal injuries, casting his continued musical career in grave doubt. Danny Taylor passed away recently (March 10 2005) of a heart attack in Kingston, New York at the age of 56.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 11:53 PM"They're still at it. Check out the 30 second sample from their fist 1968 album."
Wow, that was really interesting. It doesn't necessarily sound like something I'd want to listen to repeatedly, but it sounded *way* ahead of 1968. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sun, December 31, 2006 - 12:45 AM>> Wow, that was really interesting. It doesn't necessarily sound like something I'd want to listen to repeatedly, but it sounded *way* ahead of 1968.<<
True, I only listened to the album a few times while stoned ;) but appreciated it for being unique.Thought it was way ahead of its time, and it was. Still true today, worth listening to, but not likely to be your favorite. Then again I don't "listen" to techno, I dance to it. i listen to prog.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:28 PMyikes!! talk about psychic faxing, enrika!! i think we posted that at exactly the same moment.
i HAVE heard of synergy; i knew of larry fast from his work on peter gabriel's second solo album, and when i saw the synergy album "cords" at the library i checked it out - god, this was what, 25?6?7 years ago??? i can still remember that record like i listened to it yesterday. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:31 PMi suppose it might be pertinent to mention that as we discuss this topic i am listening to "the heavenly music corporation" by robert fripp and brian eno.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 29, 2006 - 2:31 PM"yikes!! talk about psychic faxing, enrika!! i think we posted that at exactly the same moment."
Wow, I thought you were responding to my post! Freaky. :)
Cords is also my favorite Synergy album. And I listen to that one fairly often as well. I have both Tomita's "The Planets" and Synergy's "Cords" on my iPod, so they're always available on a whim. :)
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 12:02 AMI wonder how it is possible to reduce all kraut rock to Kraftwerk…. maybe just because some other bands were, and still are, absolutely inimitable) And, well, it isn’t difficult to make up a huge list of authentic musicians. -
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Re: kraut rock
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 7:02 AMcommence kraut rock thread! fire one!! -
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Re: kraut rock
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 5:37 PMI have nothing to say about kraut rock except that it is incredible at its best) Besides, I am too lazy today….
What about you?)
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Re: kraut rock
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 10:44 PMi am unashamed to express my relative ignorance re: kraut rock. is Can kraut rock, for example? how about Cluster? -
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Re: kraut rock
Sat, December 30, 2006 - 11:00 PMbingo! i love wikipedia:
"Typical bands dubbed "krautrock" in the early 1970s included Tangerine Dream, Faust, Can, and others associated with the celebrated Cologne-based producers and engineers Dieter Dierks and Conny Plank, such as Neu!, Kraftwerk and Cluster. Bands such as these were reacting against the post-WWII cultural vacuum in Germany and tending to reject Anglo-American popular culture in favour of creating their own more radical and experimental new German culture." -
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Re: kraut rock
Sun, December 31, 2006 - 1:58 AMI am not sure about “typicalness”, but I’d like to add to the bands you and Wikipedia mentioned Embryo, Amon Duul, and Amon Duul II. Actually, this is just the tip of the iceberg – there were hundreds of “radical and experimental” German bands in the 70th. But, as with any style without exception, most of them were boring, although this is only my opinion, and there are fans of the style who own kraut albums in numbers close to infinity, I guess) -
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Re: kraut rock
Sun, December 31, 2006 - 6:14 AMWhile shopping for import 45 's in Seattle, the record store owner I frequented would play German, French and Italian Prog --aural wall-to-wall. That's how I got my first taste of Can, Gong, GuruGuru.. I loved it..and still do love the building repetitive recordings I was turned onto then; Miles Davis "Pangea" included. Miles is a fifth source, if you still wanna hang onto that theory....
This was the foundation for my appreciation of current dance DJs.
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, February 3, 2007 - 11:50 AMWikipedia should stay out of music. They totally fail their own "neutral point of view" guidelines... It's all about opinion of the meanest moderator there.
I disagree that Kraftwerk was so influential as to be included in that statement. They didn't invent their genre. Several other posts here accurately trounce that. I don't need to "me-too".
The thing I think they did for the future was to warm folks up to synthesized rhythms.
Also , they had a much larger impact in Europe than in the US, so that POV is important to consider. -
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Re: Kraftwerk
Sat, February 3, 2007 - 11:59 AM<<Wikipedia should stay out of music. They totally fail their own "neutral point of view" guidelines... It's all about opinion of the meanest moderator there. >>
my friend - welcome to the world of writing about music. isn't there an aphorism that goes, "those that don't do, teach; those that don't teach, write criticism"?
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Re: Kraftwerk
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 12:47 PMRe: Wikipedia - It's only as good as those who contribute and edit it.
Re: Kraftwerk - I really like Kraftwerk. They were one of the bands that caused me to immerse myself into electronic music. It's been fun finding out about pioneers and unique artists like Robert Moog, Nik Pascal, Léon Theremin, Raymond Scott, Delia Derbyshire, Mort Garson, and bazillions of others. From cutting tape to smashing tubes, it's been educational to say the least. I agree with the comment about the organic nature of music. It changes as much as any other language and always seems to provide more opinions than songs. ;-) Isn't it amazing how much impact a few vibrations can have on people? :D
Re: critics - Remember the bit from "History Of The World: Part 1" by Mel Brooks with the first artist and critic? Great stuff! Anyway, have fun and enjoy the music!
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